Historical accuracy of castle minfigs and equipment?

[ziljin]

I am no medieval military expert. But I sometimes look this stuff up out of curiosity. And also playing a lot of Medieval 2 Total War might have made me informed/misinformed.

As far as I can tell the knight helmets are relatively accurate.

Infantry helmets not so much.

I have mostly recent castle minfigures so I only looked those up. There is the rimmed missile troop helmet. It looks like a kettle hat but with extra protection. And the melee infantry helmet looks like a conical helmet but with extra protection. And I read that the kettle helmet is actually used by all infantry not just missile troops as Lego likes to associate them with. And sometimes was used to make soup.

I know the viking helmets are inaccurate since vikings did not wear horned helmets that often in real life. But that is easily remedied by removing the horns.

For the shields, I noticed when you google medieval spearmen they usually have oval shields (kite shields?), and medieval sword/mace/ax infantry use round shields or the heater shields (the triangular ones). As far as I can tell more armor = smaller shields or no shields. less armor like spearmen = big shields. While for lego, the small shields is used by all infantry, and the bigger shields mostly cavalry.

And for armor, knights have heavier armor, and other infantry has less armor. lego does that pretty well. but most of the missile troops have scail/chain mail while the regular infantry have just shirts with their faction logos on them? The printing looks like the missile troops are better equipped than the infantry. But usually the missile troops has very little armor because it hinders mobility which they need when enemies close in and chase them.

I know this is mostly nitpicking, but I wonder if other people have thought about this. I try not to think about it because when I do, I get bothered by the fact that I can't have mass spearmen equipped with oval shields (well I could, but the oval shields tend to cost more).

[blueandwhite]

You don't need to be an expert on the middle ages to see that there isn't a lot of historical accuracy happening within the Castle theme. The middle ages spanned several centuries and produced a wide range of tools and costumes which varied greatly century to century. If you consider how much fashion has changed over the past 30 or so years, just imagine how dramatically things would have changed over a span 10x as long. The various helmets given to LEGO's knights is probably accurate enough for a children's toy, however a Knight wearing a bucket helm would not likely be riding side-by-side with a knight who was wearing a close helm or armet which came into use centuries later. The scale mail worn by many of LEGO's infantrymen would predate both. Kettle helms were certainly worn throughout much of the middle ages. The bullet helm and nasal helm are probably meant to be early medieval helmets with a chain mail aventail though neither helmet looks particularly close to anything you would find in a history textbook.

Whether the knight/infantryman has printed mail or a surcoat doesn't really say anything about the way they are armoured considering that it was common practice for some time to wear a surcoat over your armour; a practice that was only discarded in the late middle ages. Of course, when it comes down to the accuracy of costuming soldiers didn't wear a standard uniform to begin with so the idea of lining up 300 black falcons or crownies doesn't really fit with what a medieval army would look like anyhow. As you mentioned, oval shields were typical in the early middle ages but dropped as armour developed. The heater shield (triangular shape) was more common in the later middle ages but would also be dropped as armour continued to improve and the use of two-handed weapons became more common. Simply put; if you're looking for historical accuracy you're going to have to make some pretty dramatic modifications to your figures.

[Norrington]

This same thing came up in the Pirates forum a day or so ago, and I guess the best answer that can be given is this:

All Lego themes, be they Town, Ninja, Castle, Vikings, Western, Pirate, etcetera etcetera, are caricatures. No Lego theme can really be called accurate, historically or stylistically. They are merely meant to be suggestive and evocative of a time, place or idea. Some things and elements are definitely inspired by real things, and sometimes are even as close to reproduction as is possible within the general stylization found within Lego sets, but that's few and far between. I mean, Castle has dragons and magic, Town has super-secret James Bond-esque agents, Pirates have peglegs, eyepatches and hooks, etcetera. Again, all are basically caricatures. If you want realism, go for scale models, Lego is mostly a toy that relies on it's being far enough removed from realism that you can do "anything" with it, but recognizable enough that it can also be used for familiar things, if that makes sense.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Norrington

[Calanon]

On the point of shields, I'd like to add that most LEGO are grey, which makes it look like metal. A real shield is made of wood, with only the boss and sometimes the rim being made of metal (with the exception of bucklers).

[ziljin]

I read everyone's posts. Hm, I guess fielding a realistic lego medieval army would be futile and extremely costly.

And good point about the surcoats being possibly on top of armor. Did they ever just have surcoats? Like cannon fodder infantry? Or did they just wear leather armor or just the clothes on their backs?

[Mr. Gray]

And good point about the surcoats being possibly on top of armor. Did they ever just have surcoats? Like cannon fodder infantry? Or did they just wear leather armor or just the clothes on their backs?

Well, standard infantry wore what they could afford. Whether they were extremely poor and had just the clothes on their back, or they were a somewhat rich farmer who could afford a hauberk, they wore what they had. Surcoats were mostly used by knights (who are far richer and noble than mere peasants) but if a peasant had the money, who was stopping him? :)

I feel it's fitting to mention that my army and Castle world is based off of what a 12th century world would look like. Meaning that the only helmets I use are the Nasal Helm, the Kettle helm, an (if I had any) the bullet helm. Granted the Great Helm was created around the end of the 12th century, my Castle world is during the early-to-mid 12th century. And for the torso with "only the surcoat" if you look under the newer versions (Kingdoms, but I believe the Crownie's surcoat had this too) you can see that they indeed are wearing chainmail underneath it. :)

[2maxwell]

For the shields, I noticed when you google medieval spearmen they usually have oval shields (kite shields?), and medieval sword/mace/ax infantry use round shields or the heater shields (the triangular ones). As far as I can tell more armor = smaller shields or no shields. less armor like spearmen = big shields. While for lego, the small shields is used by all infantry, and the bigger shields mostly cavalry.

The matter of shields is very complicated because you are drawing an arbitrary line between spearmen and other infantry. Consider germanic and celtic peoples. Among them, the round shield was more common, regardless of weapon. It is true that among them, larger oval shields were used by spearmen, but the round shield is by no means only for warriors wielding close combat weapons. Similarly, early crusaders and Norman knights used the kite shield the vast majority of the time. They carried a spear and sword. Vikings used round shields almost exclusively, despite using numerous different weapons. Heater shields were adopted throughout Europe around the 13th century and became the mainstay for both infantry and cavalry.

As everyone else has said, medieval armies were never uniform in their equipment, and Legos are toys.

On the point of shields, I'd like to add that most LEGO are grey, which makes it look like metal. A real shield is made of wood, with only the boss and sometimes the rim being made of metal (with the exception of bucklers).

This is a sweeping generalization. European shields may have been constructed this way, but its worth noting that they dont account for all "real" shields.

[blueandwhite]

On the point of shields, I'd like to add that most LEGO are grey, which makes it look like metal. A real shield is made of wood, with only the boss and sometimes the rim being made of metal (with the exception of bucklers).

That's just as well because printing seems brighter on light grey/bley than it does on brown. The old forestmen shields were brown but even when new, the printing seemed dull compared to the other factions.

[tppytel]

As noted already, there was a great deal of variation in equipment both between civilizations and across time as technology developed. I don't worry a great deal about it, but as a slight nod towards realism, I tend to outfit my archers in the surcoat torso and the brimmed helm. I figure that archers would tend to be less heavily armored and would want a brim to keep sun out of their eyes. Of course, there could be armor under the surcoat, but this way they at least appear less armored. I put grunt spearmen/swordsmen in the scale mail with the great helm. It would be nice to find a less flamboyant helm (like the old bullet helm) available in pearl light/dark gray or metallic, but I don't see anything better out there.

[Runamuck]

One should take into account that there is a lot of regional variation in equipment in the medieval times. The medieval time period even has different time definition depending on what part of Europe we are talking about. Most of the equipment that the LEGO castle theme uses has at least existed at some point. I have heard that the kettle hat was mostly used during sieges to protect the siege layers from all the crap that were being thrown at them. There is a certain Scandinavian influence on the Castle theme as it seems to be very fond of axes. We have Norman helmets, but we also have helmets of Italian types that the scorpion knights use. Some poorer knights might use older and cheaper types of armor out of necessity.

In general any LEGO castle army would be extremely rich due to all the armor it has, and a few hundred years ahead of its time because of the uniforms. Not to mention the colors to dye the uniforms would cost a fortune.

Also it annoys my brother, who is being educated as a medieval archaeologist, that the Vikings have horns and plate armor.

[ziljin]

Very interesting. The lego castle factions are indeed rich. especially the later ones with all that horse armor and extra armor pieces. I know cavalry especially heavy cavalry required lots of money to maintain.

[hanzocloud]

i am waiting for lego to have a realistic faction one day in the near future where the soldiers are grey/white with a red cross on their shields and torsos to resemble templars.

[de Gothia]

i am waiting for lego to have a realistic faction one day in the near future where the soldiers are grey/white with a red cross on their shields and torsos to resemble templars.

I guess you have to wait very long then! I´m guessing Lego will not make any religious war as the templars vs saracens was...

[Runamuck]

I don't know if it is what you want, but the white knight in the original yellow castle actually had a cross on his armor and shield.

[frogstudio]

I don't know if it is what you want, but the white knight in the original yellow castle actually had a cross on his armor and shield.

It's true. Historicalle he might be a knight of The Order of Malta (Order of Malta in Canada)), but I guess it was a "mistake" that won't be happening again... :(